Crank Forward Forum

Jonathan Grayson

Mar 23, 08 - 10:42 AM

Demo Review

Yesterday Manny was nice enough to let me demo his wife's new Fusion and his Dynamik.I want to thank Manny and his wife for their kindness.Now to the review.I liked the Fusion right away as do most people but found the dynamik didn't feel right.Maybe I needed to play with the seat but something other than that felt wrong.Back to the Fusion review.I will say this that if your looking for a comfort bike this is the ultimate bike.After I rode the Fusion I went down to a Trek dealer right down the street from Manny and demoed a Trek 7500 and a FX comfort bike.The 7500 almost had the same up right ride as the Fusion but didn't feel right.I can see that if your going to ride up right the crank feels better forward.Also being up right and so high off the ground with the center of gravity so high feel funny after riding the Fusion.Rans got the Fusion right low center of gravity crank forward.On the Trek you feel like a bowling pin waiting to be knocked over.This said the Fusion has it's limits.It's fun to ride,comfortable but for anyone who has riden a fast rode bike or mountain bike it leaves alot.I see it as a second or third bike that you can "Cruz" so to speak around in for the joy of riding.I'm not sure it's the kind of bike I'd put 2 or 3 thousand into to get everything just so like I've done with other bikes.Also don't kill me for this I think Rans should stopped with the Fusion and Cruz.The other bikes in the crank forward line up don't me sense to me but that JUST my feeling and I'm sure other feel different.Now when we are on the subject of Rans it's sad that in the six largest city in the US.there are no bikes to demo.No Rans dealer in Phoenix carries them ,sad.This is the largest county in the US. with 4 million plus and I have to go to someones house to demo a bike.Give me a break.Rans needs to get with it and work with the dealers to bring in bikes to the 10 biggest cities in the USA.When I called Rans and told them this they acted like so what.They told me people come to Kansas to demo bikes,right.I mean these are one size fits all so all a dealer has to do is carry one Fusion and one other bike with the shorter wheelbase.Rans needs to get it's act together and get these bikes out to the dealers even if they have to lose money to do so.

Simon

Mar 23rd, 2008 - 3:29 PM

Re: Demo Review

Jonathan, If there aren't any Crank Forward dealers in Phoenix you should become one.

Sparkles

Mar 23rd, 2008 - 9:49 PM

Re: Demo Review

Jonathan said:
Now when we are on the subject of Rans it's sad that in the six largest city in the US.there are no bikes to demo.

Sparkles says:
I live in Phoenix, and had the same problem last Fall when I was trying to find someone who carried Rans CF bikes. I ended up having to drive the 120 miles to Tucson to demo and buy my Fusion from Ajo Bikes. It is indeed surprising and puzzling that the tiny town of Tucson has a dealer who carries Rans CFs, but the giant area of Phoenix and environs has no such dealer.
By the way, you said "No Rans dealer in Phoenix carries them ,sad.". To the best of my knowledge, the only bike shop in the Phoenix area that carries any Rans bikes at all, is Sun Cyclery on 7th St. They have one or two Rans recumbents, and some Bachetta and Cycle Genius recumbents, but no Rans CFs.
At one point I used to think that the reason no bike shop in Phoenix carried Rans CFs is that they didn't think they could sell any because of the high price, since most people don't want to pay more than about $400 for a bike. But I realized that this theory is wrong because 1. Many bike shops have standard diamond frame bikes that sell for two to three thousand dollars, 2. Sun Cyclery somehow manages to stock expensive recumbents. I finally settled on the theory that says that the reason so many large cities have no Rans dealers is that Rans is not interested in selling more bikes than they already do. Otherwise, they would take steps to implement your excellent suggestion about having at least one dealer in each of the ten largest cities in the U.S. This theory is also supported by their response to your phone call: i.e. "When I called Rans and told them this they acted like so what.They told me people come to Kansas to demo bikes,right".
There is no law of nature which says that businesses have to be interested in geting bigger than they already are. This is unfortunate for us, but it is their business and they can run it as they please.
BTW, I think I will stop by Sun Cyclery and ask them why they don't stock any Rans CFs (since they do stock some Rans recumbents).

Jeffh

Mar 24th, 2008 - 3:51 AM

Re: Demo Review

Some dealers don't carry the Rans CF because they simply don't believe that there is a market for them. A very large bent dealer in Milwaukee has this very attitude.

Sparkles

Mar 24th, 2008 - 10:16 AM

Re: Demo Review

I wonder how the very large bent dealer in Milwaukee (or any other bike dealer, for that matter) can come to believe that there is no market for CFs without having any in stock for people to discover and try out. Hardly anyone even knows about the existence of Rans CFs, much less have any opinion about whether they like them. Even most of the bike shop owners and employees don't know about the existence of Rans CFs. However, most bike shops do carry a large selection of Electra Townies, which are milder versions of CFs. So they must be selling well enough for the shops to keep them in stock.

jeffh129

Mar 24th, 2008 - 11:23 AM

Re: Demo Review

Actually I believe this dealer is Wisconsin's largest bike dealer,and a recumbent leader, so I have to assume they do know something about their sales strategy. They do sell a large selection of "comfort" bikes, which I believe they feel fits the bill for that type of customer.

I don't necessarily agree, but I don't own the company and it's not my dollars being tied up in inventory. Again, as this is an extremely successful bike dealer, I have to believe that they have their solid reasons for not selling the CF bikes.

Simon

Mar 25th, 2008 - 5:59 PM

Re: Demo Review

Jeff, if a bike shop isn't carrying a certain type of bike, then their only justification is prejudice. I can understand if they tried selling a Crankyforward and ended up dropping the price after a couple years, but to flat out deny a genre of bikes is descrimination. The only solid decision is to not carry a certain brand of bikes because you have a company that does the same thing.

randyschlitter

Mar 25th, 2008 - 7:47 PM

Re: Demo Review

For many dealers it is a stretch to consider anything other than what the other shops are dealing, this applies to bents, and CF's. Some of best bent dealers refuse to handle CF's, it boggles our minds, and then one day they suddenly decide to handle them, and start moving bikes. We are ok with this, because at some point we would rather not twist arms to sell, and use that energy to keep the good stuff coming.

I firmly believe more and more dealers will sign on.
We are getting many calls every week from dealers in places with no coverage.

A significant change is the we have many bikes in stock, and can supply dealers within 24 hours for many models, although this stock is shipping fast, as the season starts up.

CF's are a great biking product that makes sense for so many of us. We are continuing to grow our biz, and enjoy the bikes too!...as I hope you all continue to do as well.

Manny

Mar 27th, 2008 - 4:21 PM

Re: Demo Review

Dear Rans CF enthusiasts, (sorry, long post)

This remark by Jonathan has been gnawing at my gut:
"found the dynamik didn't feel right.Maybe I needed to play with the seat but something other than that felt wrong" I must comment on that.

I've been riding my Dynamik since Nov of 2007. Rode a 40 mile loop today, my longest ride on this bike to date. My total mileage on this bike is now 576 miles. The only thing wrong with my Dynamik was that Jonathan's butt was on it. There, I feel better already! "You can drink my liquor from an' old fruit jar, but, unh, unh, don't you step on my mettalic blue dynamik."

Photos of my Dynamik are on Nanda's Spincylz website:
http://www.spincyclz.com/Crank_fever_2_0.html See Manny's Dynamik 11.02.07. Some changes I've made since those pix: added fenders, changed rear rack to an OMM Sherpa, swapped the SRAM cassette for a Shimano (still 11-34), changed the front chainring to a 42t, changed to campus "spd" pedals and added a Rans frame pac. Not pictured are mods to the seatpan as detailed in one of Randy's "ITR" articles. Plus I extensivly cross drilled it to try and get some air flow (cooling) through the seatpan. I also cut out the hump on the seatpan horn.

I've ridden this bike on the road, MUPs and canal bank, both hard pack and paved. Can ride it hands free. It goes, it stops, nothing at all wrong with it, period.

Thanks for letting me rant.

Manny

Rick Kulp

Mar 29th, 2008 - 6:07 PM

Re: Test rides in big cities

Jonathan's comments about the lack of CF dealers in the 6th largest city applies as well to the 3rd largest. My wife and I just drove the 85 miles from Chicago to Milwaukee, where Jeff at Northshore Wheels had a wide selection of CFs for us to test ride on this balmy 30-something degree day. I had intended to order from my local bike shop, hoping that would encourage them to get with it. But Jeff had what we wanted, was as helpful as could be, and as a result sold a couple bikes today.

Rick Kulp

Northshorewheels.com

Mar 30th, 2008 - 10:41 AM

Re: Demo Review

I am a small dealer in Milwaukee and I sold 3 Cf's this week. I truly feel both Bents and Cf's are better suited for smaller dealers anyway. I am confused on how big shops get to keep their dealerships when they do not stock the complete line. Would you by a BMW from a dealer that also sells Ford in the same showroom? If this Ford dealer only had 3 BMW's on the floor you would even be less inclined to purchase, Right?

These bikes get lost at bigger dealerships, staff does not know how to sell them and they are 5 ft away from bikes that costs $350 and look just as shiney.

Smaller upscale shops install confidence and create value by marketing upper end brands to a targeted demographic profile. MY 2 cents

Riley

Apr 3rd, 2008 - 8:26 PM

Re: Demo Review

I'm still amazed there isn't a Rans CF dealer in Wichita, KS....the largest city in Rans' home state.

Connie

Apr 17th, 2008 - 4:12 PM

Re: Demo Review

I have to second the idea that it takes time for dealers to figger out how to sell them, which has to come before stocking them.

True story: I was looking for a comfy, cummuter alternative to my very fast teeny Terry woman-frame bike. My area (Portland OR) is bike friendly and I thought, maybe a recumbent would do. So I went to the best recumbent store. Everywhere else seemd to be selling either mtn DFs or Tour de F wannebe.

The owner (great guy) heard my story and steered me to a couple of recumbents. They seemed expensive, complicated, and the tris were heavy, heavy. Nothing appealed to me. Then the owner kind of waved over to the RANS models on the floor and said, well we have these crank forwards... I said, what's the deal, and he said, they're comfort bikes. At that time I thought I was there to look at recumbents, not what I assumed was a heavy old beach bike so I said no thanks.

A year later I had done some more wishing and hoping, did my homework online and went back to the same store to order my Fusion. The guy I worked with said that early on, there was a feeling that the CFs were neither 'bent nor DF, so had no benefit. And it wasn't until he himself felt how you pull on the handlebar to get power, that he got the advantages.

Now if somehow I had communicated earlier, and the dealer could have heard, what I originally wanted was what CFs have, in spades:

- fast, light, a zippy feeling
- just plain fun factor
- safety in traffic from heads-up
- quality, quality everywhere - can take the slings and bumps of daily commutes
- ergonomics good for long-term health and comfort
- (related to ergonomics) very adjustable per person
- handles fast/hard/speed, and loafing around, either
- maneuverable at street corners and around bike racks (unlike lwb bents)
- not a bike thief magnet (like teeny road bike)
- one-upmanship in bike coolness (hard to achieve here)

Now if only I can complete my craft project of making my bike helmet look like an OR duck head, I would be all set. I do know to make the visor orange LOL

Connie

randyschlitter

Apr 17th, 2008 - 6:32 PM

Re: Demo Review

Connie,
That was a good laugh with that bit about the duck head helmet! I used to ride around with a straw cowboy hat when doing just causal rides. My bike buddies said I should wear a helmet, so I would say, it is made of kevlar fiber, and is my helmet, we all had a laugh, but it got me to thinking how cool would that be? So if you can make a duck head helemt, why not a cowboy hat of kevlar?

Love the list of advantages too, nice review, thank you so much!

Simon

Apr 18th, 2008 - 2:16 PM

Re: Demo Review

I think many people are threatened by the CF design. The Crankforward seems very easy to sell, plus it has few if any turnoffs. Bike shops have a long history of being inefficient so it's not a surprise they have an irrational fear of the Crankforward. Cheap Crankforward bikes like the Townie make it easy for salespeople to learn about them, but it also gives Crankforward a label of 'strictly recreational'. As Thomas Paine said, "time makes more converts then reason".

Neil Frizell

May 17th, 2008 - 11:28 AM

Re: Demo Review

It's funny I noticed this prejudice in another discipline. I also enjoy flying RC model airplanes and there is the same rift between the new culture that learns by flying electric foamy airplanes, crashing frequently with few consequences and the old culture that believes crashing should cost someone months of rebuilding to pay your dues to the hobby. I think the old bicycle culture believes that the discomfort of getting "used to" sitting on what feels like a sharp stick and folding yourself in half to ride is paying your dues to the hobby. The CF allows someone to enjoy "their" hobby without paying "their" dues.

blue73thing

May 17th, 2008 - 11:49 PM

Re: Demo Review

Another possible issue for the hard-headed roadie is the fact that these CF bikes, like their recumbent ancestors, would never pass a UCI checklist for sanctioned racing. I know that's not the point of these bikes; however it seems to be paramount in the minds of much of the roadie crowd. While a HUGE percentage of the local roadie groups would never make it into a pro race, they take it very personal that they COULD make it into the race using THEIR bike. So, even though the body is ill-fit for the real races, the machine is quite capable of attending the race...and eligible. In fact, the typical roadie's bike is nearly a clone of someone who WON a pro race, right down to the exact same components and setup. Looking at a Rans CF, and lumping the whole genre together including such stars as the Giant Revive, the Electra Townie, the new crop of OCC Chopper knock-offs, and perhaps some lesser-dressed players like the K2's and other Beach bikes, the roadie crowd casts a quick condescending look and says something like "that's a pretty big seat." Then maybe a remark about the wind resistance of the upright position, and then a smirk about the kickstand :) Then they typically discount the bike and rider into "recreational class" which in roadie-speak is close to an insult. For spreading the evangelism of CF advantages, that's a problem. For me getting on with my "recreational class" life and enjoying the Ride, it's no sweat. I'm just saying that many shop owners and employees fit into the roadie mindset described above. That could explain the hesitation to embrace the CF format and push it forward.

I agree w/ Northernshore above, the niche shops will likely be the best route into the consciousness of the masses. While a niche shop, by definition, serves a small group, that group can widen the circle every time they're seen on the bike, whether commuting or training, or leisure riding. So I recommend carrying a card or notepad that you can scrawl down a few websites on whenever someone asks about your cool bike. Not everyone is comfy handing over their $1k+ bike to a stranger and saying "ride it around for a while." For that reason, I try to tell folks a little about the bike, suggest some websites for research and tell them I come by this way on whatever days about this time. Maybe I run into them again, and then give 'em a spin. Maybe I never see them again, but they join the movement :)

They will likely have to make the leap of faith to order a bike and buy before they try, like many of the rest of us. That's a big hurdle. I know Rans and some other shops have a 30-day policy, but I've not used it, and there's the possibility of having to pay shipping twice if you return the bike. Boy, it would save alot of dough to have a local shop with some demo bikes!

blue73thing

May 17th, 2008 - 11:58 PM

Sorry about the spelling, NorthShoreWheels

I didn't mean to slight NorthShorewheels by screwing up your handle, I know a small business works hard to cultivate name recognition, and I just messed yours up in my long-winded discourse above. My apologies.

It's the small businesses like yours and others on this forum that enabled me to get into CF ownership. Thanks for taking the risk!

tom

May 18th, 2008 - 7:35 AM

Re: Demo Review

interesting parallel about the model airplanes. i got interested in R/C a few years ago and investigated the local club. i lost interest pretty quickly when it seemed that the only admission ticket was 40+ hours of building a plane, and hours of repair after what would likely be frequent crashes. i was interested in flying, not model building.

perhaps some kind of program in which RANS refers prospective buyers to owners in their area, like BikeFriday does, would be a help in getting CFs to the masses?

Siimon

May 20th, 2008 - 4:38 AM

Re: Demo Review

The bike world has unfairly catered to what is a niche market. The idea that mainstream people are willing and able to sacrifice the ability to feel between their legs for cycling, is something that has relegated it to a growth-lacking sport. The current highing of fuel-prices has forced motorists into alternatives, and bike sales are going to grow, regardless of the level of logic of design. I think all bike shops need to carry a line of crankforward, in order to have healthy, happy customers.

randy schlitter

May 21st, 2008 - 9:43 AM

Re: Demo Review

We see our biggest customer base is the person NOT into cycling...yet! Cycling in the USA has for the past several decades been viewed as a hobby or sport. As we realize the health, ease, and savings the bike will be recognized as a tool.

The hardest part is convincing the average person 1K is the current admission price, but that seems to be easier now that fuel prices are soaring and you could own a Fusion for 12 fill ups at the pump.

Dave

May 21st, 2008 - 6:52 PM

Re: Demo Review

In Greensboro, NC, this evening we had a "Ride of Silence" to honor and raise awareness of those cyclists killed or injured while riding. Last year we had maybe 75 to 100 riders. Tonight I would estimate over 300 easily.

I rode my RANS Street with Citi bars and disc brakes. Had a number of comments after the Ride, since we weren't supposed to talk during it. Most people seemed to like the style, and I gave two test-rides. One to a guy I know on a Vsquared, one guy on a Birdy folder. Both were impressed w/ the ride, and perhaps I drummed up some more business :)

We're trying to get the community at large around here to pick up the cycling habit. I'm evangelizing all I can for the crankforward format and the recumbent format, even though I don't have my vrex anymore. I'm hoping to show my fellow cyclists that an everyday ride can be enjoyable without the pain of the wedgie. Also trying to get some cargo-hauling cycles for folks to see and touch.

So Randy, any plans to make a CF like the Surly Big Dummy, or maybe something like the Youba Mundo? That would rule the grocery-getting class. Maybe I'll run a poll over on BROL to see what the level of interest is.

Simon

May 22nd, 2008 - 10:10 AM

Re: Demo Review

I think a BOB trailer makes better sense.

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